Jalal Abualrub Challenges Sam Shamoun to Debate


On this page, we will document the full correspondence associated with Mr. Abualrub's debate challenge issued to Sam Shamoun. Since the original challenge was sent not to Sam Shamoun, but to the general feedback address of Answering Islam, we will display in the following:

  1. Abualrub's open challenge (emailed to an unknown number of recipients)
    and the public response to and critique of some features of this email by Jochen Katz.
  2. The full personal correspondence between Sam Shamoun and Jalal Abualrub regarding this debate.
  3. Some comments by Jochen Katz regarding the exchange between Shamoun and Abualrub.
  4. Links to other debates done by or challenges to debate issued by Abualrub.

Note: For the protection of all participants from email collecting spam robots, the email addresses are removed from this correspondence. For those who need to contact any of the participants, the email address of Jalal Abualrub alias "Madinah Center" can be found via the "CONTACT US" button of his website, www.madinahstore.com. The general feedback address of Answering Islam is available on our feedback page, and Sam Shamoun's email can be found here.

From: "Madinah Center"
To: "Answering Islam" (general feedback address)
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 4:27 PM
Subject: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun

To Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun From Jalal Abualrub

I have read the ‘unique’ exchange that you two had about the nature of God and the Trinity. Amazingly, you two cannot even agree on the nature of your God or on Trinity, even though the belief in three distinct persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost is the faith of the vast majority of Christians today and throughout history. Winn seems to have grown so arrogant as to refute the faith of the majority of Christians, not only Islam and Muslims. Yet, I should thank Winn for his criticism of the use of the word ‘person’ to describe any member of the trinity trio: it conforms to the Islamic belief that mainstream Christianity is pagan in nature, practice and method.

Yet, Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun Criticize Islam

Yet, you two criticize Islam, Muhammad, peace be upon him, and the Quran, even though neither of you speaks a word of Arabic or has any access to original Islamic resources. You also play the old game of refusing to discuss your ‘holy book’ that has similar, or worse parts, than those you claim Islam has. You also congratulate each other on your abuse of Muslims and boast about your works against Islam, yet, you know that your works are untrue, easy to refute and are no based on serious research or authentic knowledge. Instead of engaging in serious research on Islam, you and Winn rather call those who oppose you: morons, idiots, stupid, terrorists, and so forth. This, indeed, is a sign of your weakness: you cannot restrain yourselves from hurling abuse so as to shy away from tackling the issues. What are you afraid of, learning the truth and becoming a Muslim?

Winn Cowers Away from Debate

I had challenged Winn to a debate, but his responses to me were so abusive that in the end I had to tell him some ‘good’ words that he rightfully deserved. It seems that when he ‘smells’ that his opponent is knowledgeable in Islam, he cowers away from confrontation and instead looks for easy prey: Muslims who do not read much on or about their own scriptures. Originally, I had told Winn that I am willing to not read his book before the debate so that he can devastate me with his best evidence. He declined. So I told him that I will read his book and write an answer to it. His response: he called me a confused moron who cannot decide if he wants to read the book or not. Winn shows ‘compassionate conservatism’ in its most beautiful form; I wonder how Jesus, the person, would have evaluated him.

Go to (WWW.MadinahStore.Com); Read My First Two Chapters of, The Prophet of Mercy, In response to Winn’s, The Prophet of Doom

I Challenge Both Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun to a Debate

I am issuing this challenge to both of you: I am willing, ready and, Allah willing, able to take you both on in a debate about Islam, Muhammad and the Quran. If you think you are so informed about Islam, then you should not mind destroying me in a debate. This should be easy for you: you are ‘scholars on Islam’ and I am a minor seeker of Islamic knowledge. So if you think you qualify for the challenge, let us agree on the format where you two are present against me. All what I ask is that ‘no topic is off-limits’, and that I get equal time for both of you.

I encourage all the Muslims who read this email to send, time and again, emails to the websites of Shamoun ("Answering Islam" Contact Address) and Winn ("Prophet of Doom" Contact Address) asking them this:

“Why do you not want to debate Jalal Abualrub?”

No doubt, truth shall prevail and falsehood shall be demolished and destroyed.

From: Jochen Katz
To: "Madinah Center" (and a list of some of the recipients who had received the above email)
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun

Dear respected (voluntary or involuntary) audience,
 
within two days we received more than a dozen emails demanding to know

“Why do you not want to debate Jalal Abualrub?”

many of them adding "Why are you afraid of him?" or some similar statement to this effect.
Working through the pile of our newly received emails "top down" i.e. seeing the latest emails first, I responded to most of these messages:
Dear ...,
 
could you please clarify the reason for your question?
 
To the best of my knowledge,
 
1. we never received a request for such a debate.
2. we never refused to enter such a debate.
 
Therefore, your question/accusation doesn't make any sense.
Why do you think we are afraid? And afraid of what?
 
I am only aware of various Muslims who are running
away from debating us, in particular Shabir Ally (see here:
www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/challenge.htm),
and then Jamal Badawi, Zakir Naik, and others.
 
Who is Jalal Abualrab anyway?
 
Best regards,
 
Jochen Katz (director)
Answering-Islam.org
Near the bottom of the email pile, we then found the mysterious challenge we are allegedly running away from, and about which many Muslims believe we are so afraid of. The full email with the challenge is appended again below for documentation. In the following I will only comment on some aspects of it.
 
[ NOTE 1:  I do not intend to make this a lengthy discussion going back and forth, but some comments on Abualrub's "debate challenge" (sent to us three days ago) seem to be in order. This message is sent to your email address since you apparently also received the first email containing this challenge. If you do not want to receive further messages from me, please let me know and your email address will be removed should it become necessary to write another response. ]
 
[ NOTE 2: The story of what allegedly happened between Craig Winn and Jalal Abualrub doesn't bother me. Our site, www.Answering-Islam.org, has no affiliation with Craig Winn. However, as one should always read BOTH sides of a contentious matter, here is Craig Winn's view for those who want to further pursue this part of the challenge: http://www.prophetofdoom.net/debate_jalal.html. ]
 
 
The relevant part of the challenge is the last part, in which Abualrub wrote:
 

I Challenge Both Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun to a Debate

 

I am issuing this challenge to both of you: I am willing, ready and, Allah willing, able to take you both on in a debate about Islam, Muhammad and the Quran.  If you think you are so informed about Islam, then you should not mind destroying me in a debate.  This should be easy for you: you are ‘scholars on Islam’ and I am a minor seeker of Islamic knowledge.  So if you think you qualify for the challenge, let us agree on the format where you two are present against me.  All what I ask is that ‘no topic is off-limits’, and that I get equal time for both of you. 

I encourage all the Muslims who read this email to send, time and again, emails to the websites of Shamoun ("Answering Islam" Contact Address) and Winn ("Prophet of Doom" Contact Address) asking them this:

“Why do you not want to debate Jalal Abualrub?”

No doubt, truth shall prevail and falsehood shall be demolished and destroyed.

 

A minor issue is that he gives the general feedback address of the Answering Islam site instead of Mr. Shamoun's address (which is available from every one of his articles). Our feedback page very clearly states that people should first contact the individual author before they use our general address (see www.answering-islam.org/dialog.html). He later apologized for inserting the wrong address but that is really a minor issue compared with some other aspects of his message that I will touch upon in the following.

 

Note first that Mr. Abualrub had never before contacted either Sam Shamoun personally, or the general feedback address of our website. WITHOUT even waiting for a response to his challenge, he sends this request to dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of Muslims, asking them to spam our mailbox with the question, "Why do you not want to debate Jalal Abualrub?" How can he know our answer before he even posed the question? Does he claim to know what is in our hearts, i.e. to have "the knowledge of the unseen"? If we had used such a method on him, I am sure every Muslim would have called us arrogant and worse. Furthermore, he does not only ask that they send us this message once; no, he requests that they do so many times ("time and again"). This constitutes harrassment, plain and simple. That fact would not be any different if he had given the correct email address of Sam Shamoun instead of ours.

 

Since we do not download emails every hour, but maybe once a day, we had already several emails asking us why we refuse to debate before we even saw that we were challenged to a debate. Luckily, most recipients of this message seem to have discerned the nature of the request and ignored it, so that we only got a good dozen emails of this nature. Neverthless, according to the prophet of Islam, "deeds are (to be judged) by intention".

 

Second, the irony in this is that Mr. Abualrub's website, http://www.madinahstore.com, seems to have the main concern to fight against the claim that terrorism, violence, coercion, fanaticism, intolerance, harshness, compulsion are part of authentic Islam. Not at all, he claims. This is a complete misrepresentation of Islam. On the contrary, Muhammad is the prophet of mercy and compassion, and certainly of good manners, etc. Why then is the first we see of him that he seeks to enlist the wider Muslims community for an act of "cyber terrorism"?

Furthermore, he tried to make us look bad in front of a large audience, i.e. he tried to let us appear as cowards who do not dare to debate him, even before he contacted us the first time. Hardly an appropriate behavior.

The next very strange feature of his challenge is this: Although Sam Shamoun and Craig Winn have nothing to do with each other, Mr. Abualrub wants to debate both of them at the same time, and demands to have equal time for both. What does that mean? E.g., Winn may speak one hour, then Abualrub one hour, then Shamoun one hour, then Abualrub one hour. I.e. there will be three people in the debate, Winn and Shamoun get one hour, but he gets two hours. What kind of trick is that?

Winn and Shamoun are not only from different churches, they disagree on some essential doctrines. Abualrub is very much aware of this, he even started his challenge email with this observation! What does that mean? I am sure you will immediately detect the ploy if we turn the tables: What if Sam Shamoun had challenged the Muslims to a debate with one speaker representing each of these four Muslim groups: Shia Islam, Sufi Islam, Ahmadiyya, Wahabis, and then demands that he gets equal time with each of them. Each Muslim speaker gets one hour, Shamoun gets four hours. That would be a fair deal, right?

Should the Muslims dare to refuse to be part in such a set-up, then we can ask the whole world: Why are you afraid to debate Sam Shamoun?

Sorry, not with us. If there is going to be a debate, then it will be one-on-one and on equal terms and in the classical debate format. In fact, as soon as Sam Shamoun heard of this challenge, he immediately accepted to debate Jalal Abualrub on the topic:

Is Muhammad a true Prophet or was he deceived by Satan?

to be held LIVE on PalTalk. The format would be:


40 minute opening statements.

15 minute rebuttals.

10 minute closing statements.

Then a cross-examination period where the speakers ask one another a series of questions. Each person will have a minute to formulate the question, followed by a two minute response, then a 1 minute rebuttal. The questions would be rotated, i.e. speaker 1 first question, speaker 2 second question, etc. up to a total of 4 questions each.

This will be followed with a question and answer period with questions from the audience. The debate will be recorded so that it can be posted on the web (see e.g. some of Sam's earlier Paltalk debates at http://abrahamic-faith.com/debates.html).

Suggested time: February 2005.

The discussion between Shamoun and Abualrub regarding the format of the debate may not be completely over yet, but it seems as if Mr. Jalal Abualrub is already backing down from his own challenge to debate. If you want, you may send him an email and ask why he doesn't like this above proposed format which gives equal time to each speaker. But send him that question only once, not "time and again".

Within the next couple of days, we will probably publish the correspondence between Shamoun and Abualrub regarding the debate format on Sam Shamoun's section of Answering Islam: www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/. Since he challenged Sam Shamoun and/or Answering Islam publically, and publically tried to make us look like cowards, instead of contacting us personally and politely, our answer will also be made public, particularly if he backs down. That way all can see what is the deal with this challenge that may be circulating on various forums and mailing lists.

Actually, we would prefer written debates. In live debates people can throw out claims and quotations which cannot be verified and evaluated on the spot. Some arguments may look good and strong on the surface, but careful research then reveals that they are actually wrong. In written debates, this careful evaluation of arguments can be done. Thus, Sam Shamoun is available any time for an exchange of written rebuttals. But if Abualrub insists on an oral live debate, the above is the proposed format.

With the dozen or so Muslims who simply did what Abualrub told them to do, I would like to share an advise that was given by the prophet Solomon:

“A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps.” (Proverbs 14:15 NIV)

In other words, it is good to be certain that an accusation is true before you join in. Why are so many Muslims sending messages to others simply because some other irresponsible Muslims tells them to do so? If you had only carefully read Abualrub's email, you could have made the same observations that I have listed above. You could have seen yourself that this whole thing is fishy.

Another question: How many of you did even bother to read anything of what Sam Shamoun has published in order to get to know his arguments first hand, before you simply believe what you are told, and do what you are told? Well, you can make up for this lack of considering both sides before taking any action. The publications of Sam Shamoun are found here: www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/

Here is a suggestion for all those who have sent us emails. If you really want to communicate with us, why don't you send us your personal reasons as to why you have chosen to accept the word of ONE man only, Muhammad. Especially when the Scriptures of the Bible provide a consistent record and message of FORTY prophets and apostles who authenticate each other. 600 years after Jesus the Messiah had fulfilled "all that the prophets have spoken" Muhammad came along with a completely different message. Tell us why have you chosen to believe him over the Bible. We invite each of you to present your very best reasons as to why a true Christian should turn his back on the Jesus of the Bible of whom all the prophets bear witness. Give us some solid reasons as to why we should embrace Islam when God has already given to us salvation from the penalty and power of sin, a credited-righteousness, assurance of sins forgiven, a cleansed conscience, a deep peace, an untouchable joy, a new nature, a personal relationship with God, a desire to live lives that please God in our thoughts, words and deeds, an eternal home with Him in Paradise, and infinitely more! We look forward to your thoughtful responses.

If, on the other hand, you genuinely desire to know what is the message of the Bible and authentic Christian faith, I would recommend a look at our section of basics: www.answering-islam.org/Basics/ . The Bible is a large book -- about five times the size of the Qur'an. If you want to gain a relatively quick, yet accurate understanding of the Bible, read "ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN". Be sure to read the whole book. Every chapter is critical. This well-illustrated book brings together more than 1000 key verses from Scripture and shows how the words of the Prophets fit together like pieces to a puzzle. This book will give you an understanding of the Bible's main message. Whether or not you choose to believe it... will be entirely up to you. You can download this book for free at: www.goodseed.com/theprophetsenglish.html.


How many of you have ever made an attempt to learn what Christians really believe? Or have you rejected the Christian faith and the message of the Bible simply because some other Muslims have told you not to bother? This may backfire badly, just as it has done in the above case. Only in this case, at the last judgment before the throne of God, you will not have another chance. Rejecting what you do not even know is not wise. Examine the Bible for yourself, and do not let others do the thinking for you.

May the Lord God give you a burning desire to know HIM and His Truth,

not to be satisfied with superficial answers, and not give up in your quest

until you truly know HIM.

God bless you.

Jochen Katz

Correspondence between Sam Shamoun and Jalal Abualrub

After I (Jochen Katz) had forwarded Mr. Abualrub's above email to Sam Shamoun, he immediately responded by accepting the debate challenge. The following is the complete correspondence. This correspondence was a very fast exchange, and originally not intended for publication, so that it contains a number of typos, and formulations that may have been chosen differently had it been written for publication from the start. [All formulations are the sole responsibility of the person who made them.] However, apart from the removal of email addresses, no changes have been made. 


From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:06 PM

It would be a privlege for me to defeat you in a debate.

Here is the topic:

Is Muhammad a true Prophet or was he deceived by Satan?

We can do it live on Paltalk, much like the other debates:

http://abrahamic-faith.com/debates.html

Let us shoot for sometime in February since I will be busy until then. So 
now put up or shut up. I eagerly await your response because I want to see 
if your bite matches your bark.
Sam

P.S.
I am saving these emails just in case you run like the others and start 
making excuses.






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:11 PM

to sam shamoun:
i did not challenge you to run away from debate; this is not my style.  i 
was looking for a live debate between me and both of you: winn and shamoun. 
winn, as usual, does not want the challenge.  yet, i will give you the 
opportunity to defeat me in a debate, if you can, so let us talk about the 
format.  you want to prove that muhammad was deceived by satan, so be it.  i 
hope you will not do as other evangelists did when talk about a debate 
became serious: they started telling me i can talk only from islam's point 
of view.  i look forward yo hearing from you.  and if we ever debate, i hope 
you come prepared to put up, or else shut up.
jalal abualrub 





From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:16 PM

My man,

I am prepared NOW to debate you on this subject. So let's get the 
negotiations underway.

The topic, which you have accepted, is:

Was Muhammad a true Prophet or deceived by Satan?

Now, wnat you need to do is go to paltak.com and download it, it is free, 
and sign up. Once you do, you add my name- Answerig Islam.

When you go through this procedure, let me know and email me your name. And 
then we will see what this Evangelist will do to you by God's grace. Keep 
bragging about what other Evangelists have done, since this will make it all 
the more worthwhile for me to silence your big mouth. Make sure you do this 
so we can then negotiate the date and format.

Don't run since you now got me excited to educate you about your deen. Jesus 
is Lord!
Sam






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:32 PM

jesus was never lord, allah always was and will always be.  i will do what 
you suggested and then we should talk about the debate's format and date. 
yet, i tell you, i have met and debated many evangelists in my life, i have 
never seen more abusive people like you and winn.  please, keep up the abuse 
so that even your audience will know that this is all what you have, abuse 
and arrogance.
jalal 






From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:36 PM

Allah of the Quran doesn't exist. Jesus does exist and has always been Lord. 
In fact, after I defeat you in our first debate, please challenge me to 
debate on the Deity of Christ according to the Bible. Anyway, I will show 
you what I am all about come debate night, just as soon as you sign up on 
Paltalk. Till then, I will be eagerly awaiting for you. Take care.
Sam






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:52 PM

i do not need this kind of debate before the real debate, so please restrain 
yourself, stop the advance abuse and let us meet in a real debate where i 
expect you to bring your very, very best evidence.  until then, please keep 
the civility of this exchange.  i am also keeping all of these emails in the 
memory of my computer. 






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 6:45 PM

i opened a paltalk account: nickname: Prophet of Mercy...
feb, as you suggested earlier, is far away...i am looking for a late 
december live debate, and i do mean live: in a hall in front of live 
audience, with us free to alert the media...i want to give you the 
opportunity to truly destroy me...
jalal 






From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 6:56 PM

WRONG!!! Live debate will be on Paltalk JUST LIKE I SAID IN THE FIRST EMAIL 
WHICH I SAVED. And it will have to be February, AND I DO MEAN FEBRUARY. Now 
you better not start making excuses and run away since I will expose you 
on the site. You talk big but now show me what you got.

So make plans for February ON PALTALK.
Sam






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:12 PM

you are amazing, you went directly to abuse then to pre-conditions, then to 
abuse...i was not looking for this paltalk stuff, i wanted to let people see 
you talk...any way, you seem to be afraid of live debates...i accept your 
paltalk challenge, but no more pre-conditions...send me your suggestions, 
because i want to be as lenient as i can with you so that you do not have an 
excuse to call it off...finally, i think you would agree with me to this 
invocation: i ask the creator of all that exists to utterly expose as a liar 
the one among us who is the liar
jalal 






From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: Re: An Open Challenge to Craig Winn and Sam Shamoun
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:41 PM

You are more amazing. You ran your mouth about wanting to debate me. I 
accepted and told you we have a LIVE one on Paltalk (it seems that you 
couldn't figure out that Paltalk is a live chat). I also said that I won't 
be available until February. YOU AGREED AND ACCEPTED.

It seems you now are getting scared and are wanting to save face. But I 
won't let you get away with it. You challenged, I ACCEPTED, AND NOW WE 
DEBATE. You better put up, since you challenged me.

Since you agreed to do a Paltalk one, knowing I would expose you if you ran 
(good for you for saving face), now agree to a date in February so I can 
shut your big mouth. What date is good for you?

And will this work:

40 minute opening statements.

15 minute rebuttals.

10 minute closing statements.

Then a cross-examination period where we ask one another a series of 
questions. Each person will have a minute to formulate the question, 
followed by a two minute response, then a 1 minute rebuttal. We can rotate 
the questions where you ask one then I ask one for a total of 4 questions 
each.

Then we end it with a Q&A period. We will be recording it so we can post 
your defeat on this site here for many years to come:

http://abrahamic-faith.com/debates.html

So put up loudmouth and let me know if you agree to the format. Enough 
of your games.
Sam






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: My Final Offer
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:25 PM

To Sam Shamoun: This is my final offer?
You are tyrannical, aren?t you?  I tolerated your dictating the date of the 
debate, or else if I did not agree you will tell the people that I(!) walked 
away from the debate, and the media of the debate, or else?, and the topic 
of the debate, which is rather broad (so you can fill your 40 minutes with 
tens of your false accusations; then I won?t have the time to answer them 
all while you boast to your audience that you defeated me because I did not 
answer them all).  I agreed to all of this to see where it ends.  You also 
filled your emails with filthy abuse of my Quran and the Creator of 
everything, then turned around and preached to me your bible stuff.  I did 
not respond in kind because I am nothing like your kind.  I did not dwell on 
your statement: ?I am prepared NOW to debate you on this subject?.
Now listen man: stop the hysterical games and agree to this, since I agreed 
to just about everything else you dictated, then agree to this: You talk for 
2-3 minutes and raise only one issue at a time, and I respond in 2-3 
minutes.  We can spend 90-100 minuets doing this, on equal terms, then allow 
the audience a Q&A; I get the same number of questions you get and each one 
of us answers his Q in 3 minutes.  Now it is your turn to agree, or else, 
you will be cowering away from the debate and I will announce to the world 
your stance and the coward you are.  Saturday, February 5th, 2005 is the 
date when I will expose your lies, by Allah?s help.  Now it is your turn to 
put or shut up, and to stop dictating all the terms of the debate.  You have 
until tomorrow, Wednesday, 5 PM (EST) to respond to this email, or else, the 
whole world will read our emails, and let them decide who is more unjust 
than the other.
Finally, have a shred of decency and shame man and stop this abuse and the 
foul words you use, you are a no-good representative of your faith because 
of your aggressive demeanor.  Have some shame man, have some shame.
Jalal Abualrub






From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: RE: My Final Offer
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:12 AM

LOL! Yes, your true colors show. First off, you ran your mouth and lied when 
you told people to ask why I didn't want to debate you. How could I ever not 
want to debate you when you never even approached me until today? So I 
called your bluff.

Second, you were the one that said Jesus wasn't Lord, so you were insulting 
my Lord. I told the truth, Allah of Islam is not real. He doesn't exist. So 
you can keep praying to him all you want. Yet because my Lord is real he now 
exposed you. Had you not lied to your readers on the site, I would have 
considered not approaching you s directly. But I don't put up with lies and 
deceit very well.

You requested equal time in your debate challenge. You said nothing about 
two-three minute tid-bits. Sorry, but your two-three minute snippets are a 
nice cop-out. You wanted a debate, and I gave you a legitmate debate 
format. I know the typical Muslim lies and excuses often used in avoiding 
engaing in a moderated debate of this nature, and it won't work.

You have another chance of agreeing to an actual debate format, not one 
where you can avoid getting exposed for your lies.

And you will have till tommorrow, 5 p.m. to agree. Otherwise the whole world 
will see how another Muslim coward out of defending his prophet. And Alalh 
of Islam can't help you since he doesn't even exist. I am not trying to be 
mean, but honest. The clock is clicking my man, so better save face and 
agree to defend your prophet.
Sam






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: Re: My Final Offer
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:43 AM

So you refuse to debate me, Sam!  You are the one who started preaching by 
saying Jesus is lord, an awful statement that shows your paganism; I have 
your email showing its date and time.  I will post all the emails today 
unless you agree to debate me by 5 PM.  You are the one who is refusing to 
debate me, even though you dictated all of the format except one.  You are a 
coward, just a common coward.   Why do you avoid talking about issues: is it 
because you are afraid of being exposed one issue at a time, since you have 
no idea how to defend your ideas with other than abuse and packing lies in 
herds so that I do not have the time to address all those issues.  Listen, I 
agreed to every one of your demands, and this is a debate, where 
negotiations take place not you dictating everything.  But you want to 
dictate it all the way.  I state that you are ignorant and that by intention 
you distort islam, so are you man enough to defend your views?  As for your 
foul-mouth speech, you are just a common coward with no sense of honor or 
decency.  Defend your idea about Muhammad and stop all these pre-conditions, 
games and delays.  You refused to debate me, and this is the truth.






From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: Re: My Final Offer
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:01 AM

You have been hanging around Nadir, so it is little wonder you got afraid 
and started running from your challenge to me. He did the same after I beat 
him.

I will be the one posting all the emails to expose that you were only trying 
to save face, but when cornered, you ran. First, the pagan was Muhammad, not 
Jesus, since he founded his religion on paganism inspired by Satan. That is 
why you won't debate me by agreeing to a normal debate format, since you 
know your lies won't stand cross examination.

Second, Jesus is Lord, and I offered to debate you on this topic after I 
defeat you regarding Muhammad.

Let me repeat. You challenged me, running your mouth arrogantly. I accepted. 
You asked for equal time. I gave you equal time. But thanks for amditting 
that no matter how much time you get, whether 40 minutes, an hour, you still 
can't provide enough evidence to vindicate Muhammad's false claims and lies. 
Thank you for indirectly admitting this since I am sure our readers will 
love to see another Muslim too ashamed to defend Muhammad.

If you want to make it an hour for each, 20 minute rebuttals, and 10 minute 
closng statements, that's fine by me. If you want to lessen it, that's fine 
by me. Anything to get you to accept a norma debate format so I can show 
how utterly weak the Muslim case truly is.

Anyway, your next email better be an acceptance of a regular format, 
otherwise I will post all the emails to expose how another Muslim took off 
running. I don't blame you. I would do the same if I had to defend 
Muhammad's claims.

I praise the Lord Jesus for exposing your real motive in challenging to 
debate me. You never had any intention of doing so, and now your fears and 
smokescreen have been exposed after accepting your fraud proposal. You 
shouldn't make your cowardice so obvious since now all the readers will see 
it.
Sam






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: Re: My Final Offer
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:10 AM

nadir has nothing to do with it, do you want to debate or not_






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: look at it this way
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:19 AM

look at it this way: if you keep running away from me, you will never know 
how good it will feel to defeat a muslim who wrote 65 books and who has been 
an imam for 25 years...you can boast about it for years to come...you have 
not met a serious challenger yet, so stop the games, you dictated all the 
terms: this the format i want because this way i can tackle your issues one 
by one and let the listner decide who is lying and who is not, do you still 
refuse to debate me... 






From: "sam shamoun" 
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: Re: My Final Offer
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:19 AM

Are you playing games with me? Did you even read my last email? YES I WANT 
TO DEBATE AND REFUTE YOUR CLAIMS!!!! Do you want a serious debate by having 
a real debate format or not? Enough of your silly games. Tell me what you 
want, whether 40 minutes, 15, 10 or 1 hour, 20, 15 or 30, 10, 5 etc.

Stop wasting my time and get on with it since I want to announce the debate 
on our website. You have one more chance to accept or not. Then you go on 
the block list and I post our email exchanges.
Sam






From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: RE: look at it this way
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:23 AM

Look at it this way. If you are not brave enough to accept a real debate 
format, then you will be exposed for not being willing to debate someone who 
is nothing more than an amateur Apologist. And yet if you do accept, then 
your 25 years of Imamate, and all your books, will be exposed as nothing 
more than a scam since an amateur will have exposed the lie of Islam by the 
grace of the Lord Jesus. And you couldn't do anything about it.

I await your email where you accept the debate format or not.
Sam






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: Re: My Final Offer
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:28 AM

agree to the debate man and stop all the nonsense: you dictated the date, 
the media and the topic, all what i ask for is the issue by issue debate, do 
you still refuse? 






From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: Re: My Final Offer
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:36 AM

Ok. This last email is all the proof I needed to expose your scam. You 
obviously are too afraid to debate me and wanted to find a way to save face. 
You talked big, but when push came to shove, you couldn't match the talk.

You now go on my block list and I will ask Jochen Katz to post the emails 
showing how you got too scraed to debate me. How shameful that a man with 
your experience choose to run as oppossed to defend Muhammad. If you do 
decide to accept the challenge and agree to a real debate format, email 
Jochen, and I will be more than happy to expose your pseudo-scholarship.
Jesus is indeed Lord forever!
Sam






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: So Refusal is Your Final Answer
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 10:58 AM

so refusal is your final answer?_







From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: RE: So Refusal is Your Final Answer
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 11:01 AM

So backing down and not having the courage of your convictions is yours? I 
figured. Winn stands vindicated. Bye.
Sam






From: "Madinah Center"
To: "sam shamoun"
Subject: Shamoun Stands in Refusal of a Debate
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 11:07 AM

i can take you both, you and winn, at the same time...i demolished some of 
winns's lies in my new book, i do not think you have the courage to read 
it...as for winn, he is a coward just like you and refused to debate me from 
the beginning...you have until 5 PM: you dictated the date, the media and 
the topic: agree to the format man and stop all this wasting of my time... 






From: "sam shamoun"
To: "Madinah Center"
Subject: RE: Shamoun Stands in Refusal of a Debate
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 11:18 AM

Only in your dreams did you refute Winn. I glanced through your rebuttals, 
and if this is what you can produce, then it is no wonder you ran from 
debating me. I would to if I wrote the stuff you did. So Winn was right, 
you are a coward, and this is why you can only pretend to want to debate 
people. We will now publish the emails showing how you weren't willing to 
accept a real debate format. Thanks for running away. I knew you would.
Sam

Comment by Jochen Katz:

I would to give my perspective on the debate format and who can choose what.

First, Sam Shamoun did not dictate the date. He only stated that he has other committments which will only allow him to do the debate in February. He gave Abualrub the full freedom to choose any date in February (or even later, for that matter). Sam Shamoun simply stated the time when he is not available. He did not say: 6 February 2005, or nothing. That would be unreasonable. There is nothing unreasonable about giving Abualrub the full freedom to choose a date in the range within which Sam Shamoun is available.

Second, Abualrub's format is not a proper debate format. Basically, what we have here is a "court hearing". The case is: Is Muhammad a true Prophet of God, or is he not? This is a complex issue that cannot be decided on the basis of any one single argument. Many aspects have to be taken into account. Since the person whose claims and integrity are in question is not present to be interrogated himself, the case has to be made solely based on evidence collected from various places.

Such a complex case - whether pro nor contra - cannot be presented in two minute tidbits. I have never heard of a court hearing in which the prosecutor and defense will go back and fourth in two or three minute segments when they present their cases. No, each one will have a sufficient period to make his case. AFTERWARDS, after the case was presentend in its entirety THEN one can question every detail. But if one were to debate every detail before the whole case is laid out, the hearing would be a complete mess.

Insisting on "only one argument/aspect at a time" seems to have only one intention: To PREVENT Sam Shamoun from presenting a coherent case against Muhammad by interrupting him after every statement. That is simply not a reasonable debate format. Period.

Abualrub will not have less time. If he believes that he can respond to Shamoun's arguments in 15 x 3 minutes, then he can just as well do it in 45 minutes. That is the equal amount of time. The only difference is that, in a longer time, Shamoun can make a coherent case against Muhammad. On the other hand, Abualrub could then in his time make a coherent case FOR Muhammad. There is nothing unfair about this.

Perhaps Abualrub feels that he does not really need to make a case for Muhammad, perhaps he feels that Muhammad's claim to prophethood is true by default, unless shown otherwise, so that his main goal is to merely prevent Shamoun making a case against Muhammad. Then his demand for such an unsuitable debate format would make sense.

If his desire would be to make a good case for Muhammad, to convince those who are already critical of Muhammad, then he would more likely ask for a format in which he has sufficient time to build his case in defense of Muhammad's claim to prophethood.

What makes all of this even more amazing is the following observation: Abualrub answered to a debate challenge issued by some Evangelist E. D. Rosario. He even published his correspondence with E. D. Rosario on his website, and in his fourth response, dated 26 January 2004, Abualrub proposed the following debate format:

As for the debate itself:

As this format is virtually identical to the format suggested by Sam Shamoun, on what objective grounds does Abualrub now object to it? Did he demand an unreasonable format merely so that he doesn't have to debate Sam Shamoun, i.e. trying to save face for backing down from his own challenge?

A couple of days later, Jalal Abualrub begins a discussion with Ali Sina, but disappeared there as well.

Articles by Sam Shamoun
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